The new classification markings for
films and computer games are now in use. Full details can be
found at the OFLC
site.******
It
has been Senate Estimates this week in Canberra. Des Clark and his staff
were there to explain some of the more recent OFLC decisions. Brian
Harradine was absent due to ill health. His place was taken by Julian
McGaurin of the Victorian National Party. It was McGaurin who was behind
the push that saw SALO banned. The following exchange between McGaurin
and Senator Joseph Ludwig (Qld, Labor Party) is worth highlighting.
Senator McGAURAN—........
But moving on, Madam Chair, many years ago I was
involved in a movie called Salo, which was eventually banned.
Senator LUDWIG—Did you
appear in it?
Senator McGAURAN—Pardon?
Senator LUDWIG—You said
you were involved in it.
Senator McGAURAN—I was
involved in getting it banned.
Senator LUDWIG—I see.
The speakers for the following discussion are:
Senator Christopher Ellison (WA, Liberal Party)
Senator Linda Kirk (SA, Labor Party)
Senator Julian McGaurin (Vic, National Party)
Senator Joseph Ludwig (Qld, Labor Party)
Mr Des Clark, OFLC Director
Mr Paul Hunt, OFLC Deputy Director
Mr John Robinson, OFLC Business Manager
Office of Film
and Literature Classification
Mr Des Clark, Director
LEGAL AND
CONSTITUTIONAL LEGISLATION COMMITTEE: Office of Film and Literature
Classification: Discussion
Date: 24 May, 2005
Department: attorney-general's portfolio
Database: Estimates Comm.
Committee name: LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL LEGISLATION COMMITTEE
Program: Office of Film and Literature Classification
Proof: Yes
Page: 103
Source: Senate
CHAIR—Welcome, Mr Clark.
Senator Ellison—Madam
Chair, I was going to say that this is a spot normally reserved for
Senator Harradine, who is, unfortunately, not with us due to ill health.
CHAIR—We do miss Senator
Harradine, I agree.
Senator Ellison—I am
sure Mr Clark will too.
CHAIR—I have a feeling that we may now
more than make up for his absence.
Senator Ellison—I think
so. I have got that funny feeling. I just thought there was some aspect of
nostalgia that we do not have Senator Harradine here tonight.
CHAIR—Indeed,
particularly if we had renamed ‘special expert procedures’ ‘sexpros’,
as I was keen to do earlier this evening.
Senator KIRK—In 2004-05
there was additional funding of $0.3 million that I understand was to
reflect the workload increase due to Operation Auxin.
Mr Clark—It was $270,000
because of the additional workloads that are coming out of Operation
Auxin.
Senator KIRK—What
workload increase did you experience as a consequence of that operation?
Mr Clark—We had a
significant increase in the number of applications. A lot of those
applications were subsequently withdrawn, but Mr Hunt does have the
specific figures in terms of the decisions that were made by the
classification board in relation to the operation.
Mr Hunt—We initially
received just over 1,000—I think it was 1,004—applications. As Mr
Clark said, a significant number were withdrawn for a number of technical
reasons. At the end of the day, the board made 333 classification
decisions and issued a further 299 evidentiary certificates.
Senator KIRK—Was the
$270,000 funding that you received enough, or more than enough, to finance
those increases in applications?
Mr Clark—That was
sufficient to meet the increase in classifications.
Senator KIRK—How many
films, computer games and videos were considered by the office in this
last financial year?
Mr Hunt—In the 2003-04
financial year?
Senator KIRK—Yes.
Mr Hunt—Do you want a
total breakdown of all decisions by the board? Would you like them broken
into films and games?
Senator KIRK—You might
be able to take them on notice. I wonder if also used you can give us the
figures from 2004-05 until the current date.
Mr Hunt—Yes, Senator.
Senator KIRK—That would
be helpful; thank you. Will the information that you give us set out the
numbers that were refused classification as well as those that were
approved?
Mr Clark—Yes, it does.
Mr Hunt—Those figures
are in our annual report, including the numbers refused.
Senator KIRK—Have you
recently introduced a new classification scheme for computer games? Is
that a new introduction?
Mr Clark—There is not a
new scheme. The recent legislative amendment amalgamated the markings and
classifications for computer games and films so that they will appear the
same. The markings and classifications will be the film classifications
that have been used up until now. Essentially, the biggest difference is
that G8 will be called PG, and it continues to be that there is not an R
classification for computer games.
Senator KIRK—How is that
different scheme for computer games working?
Mr Clark—That scheme
commences on Thursday of this week.
Senator KIRK—So you will
be able to tell me when we speak next time.
Mr Clark—We certainly
will, and we are looking forward to that.
Senator KIRK—I have some
questions about the Classification Review Board in relation to
appointments. How many new appointments have been made in this financial
year?
Mr Clark—Two new
appointments and one reappointment have been made.
Senator KIRK—What is the
process for appointment of members to the Classification Review Board?
Mr Clark—The Office of
Film and Literature Classification does not in fact conduct the process.
That is conducted by the department, so Mr Govey may wish to provide an
answer to that.
Mr Anderson—My
recollection of the process that was followed for the recent appointments
was that it was notified on the web sites of both the department and the
Office of Film and Literature Classification that there was to be a
process. Some people put in applications as a result of that. The
committee comprised a representative from the Attorney-General’s
Department; a representative from the ACT government, as it happened, on
behalf of the state and territory classification ministers; the convener
of the Classification Review Board; and a member of the Attorney’s
office. A shortlisting process was followed, interviews were carried out
in addition to some experiential testing and then recommendations were
made to the Attorney. The Attorney then also consulted with state and
territory classification ministers before the appointments were made.
Senator KIRK—Did you
mention that any of the existing members of the board were members of the
committee?
Mr Anderson—The convener
of the board was a member of the committee.
Senator KIRK—How long
does that process take from the time it is advertised on the web site
through to the appointment of the new members?
Mr Anderson—We
interviewed in late November or early December last year. I believe they
had been on the web site in around October. I could take that on notice to
check the exact dates. The appointments were made comparatively recently:
obviously there is that need for considerable consultation between the
different jurisdictions.
Senator KIRK—In the
advertising, are there particular criteria that are listed that would make
an applicant worthy of appointment? I am thinking about whether there are
various skills, past experience or work skills that might be listed.
Mr Anderson—The act
itself gives some direction as to what is required. Obviously, there is a
need for members of the board to be able to operate in a group to review
material and to be able to engage in discussions with other group members.
Certainly, demonstrated community involvement is something that is
required. To the extent that is possible, it is desirable to have a range
of demographic and geographic coverage. So, based upon the applicants of
course, it would be desirable to have coverage from as many different
areas of Australia—from people with children, people without children,
people who are mature adults and people who are younger; that sort of
thing.
Senator KIRK—Are the
positions advertised as part time or full time?
Mr Anderson—The
positions were not strictly advertised in the sense there were not press
advertisements, although the positions were placed on the web sites. The
positions were not notified as being part time or full time because the
review board only gets together when there is an application to the review
board. It is fairly rare. I think there are around 10 applications a year
to the review board concerning films, and a few concerning games. So there
are relatively infrequent occasions when the board needs to convene to
consider an application.
Senator KIRK—How is
remuneration paid to the board members?
Mr Anderson—There is an
annual stipend that is paid.
Senator KIRK—Does that
vary according to the number of meetings they may need to have?
Mr Anderson—I do not
believe so. It varies; the convener receives a slightly higher stipend.
Senator KIRK—But I
imagine allowances are paid for travel and the like.
Mr Anderson—That is
correct.
Senator KIRK—I was
interested to learn of the number of matters that the review board
considered and the number in which classification was either refused or
approved. Could you take that on notice and provide us with that
information?
Mr Clark—That
information is in the annual report.
CHAIR—Do you have any
questions, Senator McGauran?
Senator McGAURAN—First
of all, I want to ask you about the movie Irreversible, which you
classified R. I would like to run through a few things. Do you think the
violent rape and murder scene was demeaning to the victim, Mr Clark?
Mr Clark—The board, in
looking at the film, decided that the scene was certainly very disturbing.
Senator McGAURAN—Demeaning
to the victim?
Mr Clark—A portrayal of
this type is demeaning to the victim but, in a narrative context—
Senator McGAURAN—No,
that is all I wanted—in the narrow context.
Mr Clark—Yes.
Senator McGAURAN—According
to the classification code, demeaning refers to ‘depiction directly or
indirectly sexual in nature, which debase or appear to debase the person
or character depicted’—so, it was for the victim. Is that how you took
it?
Mr Clark—The board does
not use the word ‘demeaning’ in its board report in relation to this
film, as I recall. The actual fictional portrayal in the film could be
considered demeaning, I agree with you there. But the actual film, as it
is made, does not demean the victim because it is a fictional narrative
that is being portrayed on film.
Senator McGAURAN—So,
have you changed your mind? Is it demeaning to the victim?
Mr Clark—In the
fictional sense that that is what it is, one could say that. But the board
report does not talk about demeaning.
Senator McGAURAN—But it
is to be taken in as part of the—
Mr Clark—It says it is
high in impact
Senator McGAURAN—But it
is not part of your judgment, the demeaning factor?
Mr Clark—If you were
talking about a real event such as this, yes—
Senator McGAURAN—Like a
documentary?
Mr Clark—But we are
talking about a fictional event, not a documentary. In that context, it is
not.
Senator McGAURAN—So, if
it is a documentary, therefore filming real—it is demeaning.
Mr Clark—It could be.
Senator McGAURAN—It
could be demeaning. But, because it is two actors, indeed, it is not
demeaning. Is that what you are saying?
Mr Clark—That is
correct.
Senator McGAURAN—So, I
take it you believe that that rape-murder scene is not demeaning.
Mr Clark—In the context
of this film, the board did not find that the scene was a demeaning
portrayal, because it is a fictional portrayal in the context of a film
which has high impact.
Senator McGAURAN—Most of
the films, if not all, are fictional, aren’t they?
Mr Clark—The majority of
public exhibition are fictional. There are occasional—
Senator McGAURAN—So your
judgments are made on fiction—
CHAIR—Senator, if you
could let Mr Clark at least finish his answers, I think it would be
helpful to proceedings.
Senator McGAURAN—Okay.
Mr Clark—Senator, there are occasional
documentaries which are features. There are occasionally films which would
be refused classification which may have demeaning content in the view of
the board. So a film which in the view of the board is demeaning is most
likely to be refused classification.
Senator McGAURAN—All
right. I will take it that you did not think that that particular scene
was demeaning to the victim.
Mr Clark—The board did
not.
Senator McGAURAN—The
board.
Senator Ellison—I think
it is clear that Mr Clark can only speak for the board. It is the board
that does the classification, as I understand it, not Mr Clark.
CHAIR—Thank you,
Minister.
Senator McGAURAN—Okay.
He is the chief censor though. The buck stops at your desk, doesn’t it,
Mr Clark?
Mr Clark—I carry
responsibility of the OFLC and the classification board as chairman of the
board—
Senator McGAURAN—Do you
have a casting vote?
Mr Clark—At the end of
the day, the board votes—
Senator McGAURAN—Do you
have a casting vote?
Mr Clark—and, after
that, I do have a casting vote.
Senator McGAURAN—Well,
that makes you the real focus. How tight was this vote?
Mr Clark—It was not a
casting vote situation. It was certainly a split decision by the board—
Senator McGAURAN—But you
do not want to be too light about—
Mr Clark—Sorry, it was a
unanimous decision.
Senator McGAURAN—shifting
it onto the board: ‘The board makes all these decisions.’ You are the
chief censor, you are the public face and you are the chairman with the
casting vote. If you do not in your position—you certainly get paid more
than the others, I suspect—carry some authority and responsibility, I
would be surprised.
Mr Clark—The board is a
board of statutory appointees who are expected to be independent in their
decision making. The board cannot be directed by the chair as to how they
should vote. The board will vote according to their view on the matter
that is before them. Sometimes they vote unanimously, sometimes there will
be a split decision. Rarely is there a situation where there is a casting
vote.
Senator McGAURAN—All
right. I will not go down that track. I was not meaning to. We will keep
it tight, Madam Chair. Did you think that in that particular scene—I
must not fall into the trap of continually repeating it—the victim was
exploited?
Mr Clark—I find it
difficult, because it is a fictional story that is being told. It is
represented in a very violent manner.
Senator McGAURAN—Why I
focus on this scene is that if you took that scene out it could well have
been an MA.
Mr Clark—That is the
problem—
Senator McGAURAN—I am
focusing on that scene because that is where the classification came
in—on that scene. I would say that was the dominant classifier—whether
it was an R, an X or RC.
Mr Clark—No, I believe
it would still have been an R-rated film because of the murder sequence
that precedes that.
Senator McGAURAN—All
right then. I did not quite get your answer. Do you think the victim was
exploited?
Mr Clark—Senator, it
goes back to this division between what is a real event where one could
say, ‘Yes, that is the case.’ In this event you have actors who are
willingly being paid to act a scene in a movie—
Senator McGAURAN—Well,
we may as well revoke the whole thing if that is the case. If that is how
you are going to judge it—by whether it is a documentary or a film—we
may as well get rid of this.
CHAIR—Senator McGauran,
let me make it quite clear.
Senator McGAURAN—It is a
joke!
CHAIR—In this committee
we allow witnesses to complete answers to their questions, we do not
interrupt them and we proceed in an orderly fashion. If you would let Mr
Clark complete the answers to his questions—
Senator McGAURAN—Offensive
answers.
CHAIR—You may find the
answers offensive or not, as the case may be—
Senator McGAURAN—Why
don’t you put that in your report if that is your view now? Why don’t
you put that in your report?
CHAIR—Mr Clark, if you
would like to complete your answer to this question, Senator McGauran will
ask his next question.
Mr Clark—Senator, the
film runs for some 98 minutes. This particular scene, as I recall, is
about nine minutes in the context of that film. Yes, it is very strong in
content. The board was of the view that the actual rape scene was one
where the lack of detail in it, although it was still very high in the R
classification, permitted it to stay within the R classification category,
particularly given the broader context of the film. If you have seen the
film, the film ends on a note where you have very happy, innocent people
going to a party. This makes the impact of the film even stronger in some
respects, but it diminishes in the length of the film. Taking the scene
out of context as a fictional narrative is not helping. Overall, yes, this
film is very high in impact. Yes, two scenes in particular are in the top
end of R—the board recognised that—but they can be accommodated in the
R classification.
Senator McGAURAN—I am
referring to the classification code here and under R-rated it
specifically lists these criteria which I am pointing out to you. Here is
another one. To you think that particular scene, which was dominant in the
movie, depicts cruelty?
Mr Clark—It depicts a
very violent rape scene.
Senator McGAURAN—Do you
think it was implied?
Senator Ellison—Can I say something
here which may be of assistance to everyone. Senator McGauran has now
struck on the way the question should be put, and that is: what does it
depict? The question is, did it demean the victim? Of course it was, as Mr
Clark says, a fictional movie and the question is all of depiction—what
did it depict? That might make it easier for Mr Clark to answer questions
if Senator McGauran puts it in that term: did it depict this sort of
thing? It is a fictional film which is depicting certain things. I think
that is better wording to put in a question to Mr Clark.
Senator McGAURAN—You
cannot just isolate scenes, Mr Clark, because scenes are often taken out
and clipped—indeed, recut sometimes in extreme cases—to make a
classification. That is a red herring you are putting up, without
question. I will move on. But you can see my point. I am trying to read
the code here which says ‘a high degree of exploitation’ and whether
the sexual violence may be implied. It certainly was implied, wasn’t it,
the scene? It was pretty obvious.
Mr Clark—Are you reading
from the code? I have the code here. I think you may have the old
guidelines for classification, not the code. The code says that we need to
‘take account of community concerns about depictions that condone or
incite violence, particularly sexual violence; and the portrayal of a
person in a demeaning manner’. They are the code words. It does not
condone or incite, in my view, but it certainly is a depiction of
violence, and sexual violence. Certainly I am not isolating that scene.
With respect, I think you are isolating that scene and I am trying to put
that scene into the context of the entire film.
Senator McGAURAN—You are
trying to merge it into the greater film. Quite frankly, one scene can
ruin a whole film’s classification.
Mr Clark—I agree.
Senator McGAURAN—Good.
Stop trying to spread it so thin across the whole movie. It is a paramount
part of the movie. But moving on, Madam Chair, many years ago I was
involved in a movie called Salo, which was eventually banned.
Senator LUDWIG—Did you
appear in it?
Senator McGAURAN—Pardon?
Senator LUDWIG—You said
you were involved in it.
Senator McGAURAN—I was
involved in getting it banned.
Senator LUDWIG—I see.
Senator McGAURAN—There
was a scene of a 16-year-old girl or under raped and the movie was banned.
What has changed so that Irreversible, which has I think under any viewing
a worse scene, is allowed?
Mr Clark—I was not
involved in the decision regarding that film, Senator, and I do not have
access to the board report on that film at the moment. As you have
described it, a 16-year-old girl would heighten the impact of a scene such
as that. I cannot give you a detailed answer, but certainly that would be
part of the consideration by the board.
Senator McGAURAN—So the
16-year-old girl’s scene is a worse scene—
Mr Clark—A child, under
the age of 18, yes.
Senator McGAURAN—than
what is depicted in Irreversible—a mature woman?
Mr Clark—The detail of
the scene in Irreversible is not high; it is not a detailed scene. Yes, it
is long, but it is not detailed. As I do not have knowledge of the other
scene, I am unable to make a judgment on it.
Senator Ellison—I point
out that if you had a depiction of a sexual act in that situation with a
person under 18, it could well infringe the child pornography laws that we
have enacted. I can get back to Senator McGauran on that if he is
interested, but I think our new laws could catch a situation of that sort
where a child is being abused in that fashion.
Senator McGAURAN—That is
exactly why the movie was banned. Whatever laws exist now regarding the
classification scheme also existed then.
Senator Ellison—I raise
that to point out the current status—
Senator McGAURAN—You
have told me what has changed since the banning of that one—that the
difference regarding the rape scenes relates to the age of the person.
Under those circumstances, the Report on the review of the operation of
the 2003 guidelines for the classification of films and computer games—I
forget who undertook that review—
Mr Jordana—The report
was undertaken by a consultant named Kate Aisbett.
Senator McGAURAN—One of
the key findings of the report was:
There is no discernible
shift in the nature of permissible material within particular
classification categories ...
So from the old category
to the new category there has been no discernible shift.
Mr Clark—From the old
classification guidelines to the new guidelines, the 2003 guidelines, her
finding was that there has been no shift in the standards contained within
the guidelines.
Senator McGAURAN—And you
agree with that?
Mr Clark—Yes, Senator, I
do.
Senator McGAURAN—Turning
to another movie, 9 Songs, in the review board’s own report it is
admitted that this movie has pushed all the boundaries; that it has taken
the next step and broken the record. It states:
No previous movie in
Australia has been classified R by the review board where it contains a
prolonged, detailed scene of explicit ....
It is talking about sex,
basically. So it has pushed the boundaries. To me, it has gone over the
boundaries, but it has pushed the boundaries. This movie, 9 Songs, is a
first. So there has been a distinct change. When a movie like Salo can be
banned, with lesser degree scenes than either Irreversible or 9 Songs, it
means that there has been a discernible shift in the interpretation of the
code, and that the new code itself is different from the old one. Do you
agree that 9 Songs is a movie like no other that has been released?
Mr Clark—Senator,
because it is a decision of the Classification Review Board, I really do
not want to comment on the decision. Certainly, as I understand it, the
amount of actual sex contained in the film is greater than we have seen
before—not a huge amount greater, but certainly there is a greater
amount of actual sex in the film than in any other film before. But that
is a decision regarding interpretation of the guidelines, not a change in
the standards contained in the guidelines. With respect to the guidelines
for sex at the R level, the words used in these guidelines and in the old
guidelines are the same.
Senator McGAURAN—They
are the same. So you are saying there has been a change in the
interpretation of the guidelines. There has been a discernible shift.
Mr Clark—It is for the
review board to interpret the guidelines. I cannot comment on that.
Senator McGAURAN—What
are we to make of this report that goes to the minister, no less? It says:
There is no discernible
shift in the nature of permissible material within particular
classification categories ...
But there has. 9 Songs
proves there has been a discernible shift. We have a first on our screens.
Anyway, continuing on, if I may.
CHAIR—Senator McGauran,
I want to alert you to the fact that the committee does have a very
significant time constraint tonight. We have the entire estimates for the
Australian Customs Service to examine this evening and we are running very
short of time. Could you give the committee some indication of how long
you might wish to spend with the OFLC?
Senator McGAURAN—Barring
sidetracks—
CHAIR—Whose—yours or
ours?
Senator McGAURAN—Probably
mine—20 minutes.
CHAIR—Could we review
that in 10?
Senator McGAURAN—Yes.
Senator Ellison—Perhaps
we can also take some questions on notice.
CHAIR—That would be very
helpful to the committee.
Senator Ellison—We want
to ensure that Senator McGauran gets all his questions up.
CHAIR—Absolutely.
Senator McGAURAN—I have
a letter here from the Attorney-General on a certain matter. I will read
you a paragraph of it. It says:
However, Board and Review
Board members, as statutory appointees, endeavour to make decisions which
are as objective as possible, on behalf of the community and not as
personal opinions. In other words, the boards apply what they consider to
be the standards of reasonable adults in the community, rather than the
personal standards of members.
Take into account that
Philip Ruddock has quoted that you take community views into account. In a
letter to Senator Harradine, from Minister Ruddock, he says that, in the
case of 9 Songs, consumer advice was sought. Can you tell me what
community opinion was sought when you reviewed the movie?
Mr Clark—Sorry, Senator,
would you repeat the last phrase.
Senator McGAURAN—That
community views were taken into account with regard to 9 Songs. He says
that to me. He calls it consumer but in my letter he calls it community.
You know what he is getting at. In fact, it is even part of your brief.
Isn’t it your brief to take in community views?
Mr Clark—The
classification board is broadly representative of the Australian community
and, in making decisions, it plays out that role. In the ordering of the
business of the board, often a board member may alone or with one or two
others be in a position to have to make a decision on the classification
of a product. In making a decision in that manner, they need to have
regard to the views of the whole board. The whole board does have a range
of views and they need to seek to reflect that in a decision. If they do
not think they can do that, they will go back for a re-screen or another
consideration of the product. When the classification board meets as a
whole, they will more specifically articulate their own views in relation
to their classification decision but they all have regard to and respect
the views of the other members of the board. They have a vigorous
discussion and then come to a decision so that, in making a decision, they
are fulfilling the board’s statutory function, which is to be broadly
representative of the Australian community. That is why they are there.
Senator McGAURAN—Am I to
take it from that answer that they do assert their personal opinions?
Mr Clark—I have
described to you the two ways in which they work. One is that it is a
collective view of the board and, yes, in other circumstances they will
have vigorous discussion. But, as I say, they have respect for it. It is
not about being representative of any particular group; they just have to
have regard to broad views in the community. As you appreciate, that is
not going to suit everybody. Not everybody is going to be happy with those
decisions.
Senator McGAURAN—I see
your point but Mr Ruddock would not because he says you do not take into
account your personal views—but you do bring your experience and broad
views to the board I am sure. But it is clear not only from Mr Ruddock’s
letter to Senator Harradine and to me with regard to 9 Songs and according
to your charter that you must take into account community views, whatever
way you do it.
Mr Clark—Yes, correct.
Senator McGAURAN—Specifically
in relation to 9 Songs, how did you take into account community views?
Mr Clark—Senator, as I
described to you, we are there because of the fact that the board members
are widely experienced in the community. They participate in the
community. They come from all over Australia from all sorts of geographic
origins. In doing that, part of their function is to reflect the
community. Therefore they do that in their day-to-day decision making. In
testing our decisions, in saying, ‘Are we consistent with the
community?’ we have done the community assessment panels in the past 10
months, and these are saying that the board is making decisions which are
broadly consistent with community standards in terms of the focus groups
done as part of that. The operational review has looked at that and there
has been significant consultation there, talking with people about
decisions being made by the board as to whether there has been a change in
standards within the 2003 guidelines. In addition to that, the actual
process for establishing the guidelines and developing the new guidelines
once again involved a very extensive consultation process. So we are
testing all the time. We do not just go out on one decision and say,
‘Are we consistent with community views?’ There is this ongoing
process of research and finding out, ‘Are we in the right place?’ and
broadly saying to us, ‘Yes you are.’
Senator McGAURAN—Then
why did you, in reflecting community views, differ from the review board?
Mr Clark—That is the
system, and the way the system operates—
Senator McGAURAN—They
have a different outlook from the community view.
Mr Clark—The review
board makes a new decision, and from time to time the review board will
make a decision at a higher classification level, the same level or a
lower level. That is another test of the system and that is the function
of the review board. It is a new decision. They use the same tools we use
in the process.
Senator McGAURAN—They
have the same community touchstone you do.
Mr Clark—Yes, and they
use the guidelines, the same code and the same sections of the act to come
up with a decision. From time to time they will come up with a different
decision, and that is demonstrating that the classification system is
working.
Senator McGAURAN—The
classification system makes it quite clear that bondage is inadmissible in
a movie. Did you find that there was any bondage in 9 Songs? It is not
even a point of discretion; it is out.
Mr Clark—The board came
to a different view from the review board in relation to one scene in
the—
Senator McGAURAN—Did
you? Did your board find bondage—
CHAIR—Senator, Mr Clark
is answering your question.
Mr Clark—In looking at
that scene the board was of the view that this was a more of a role-play
situation than a bondage situation. The board are very familiar with what
a bondage situation is and were of a view that this was not the sort of
activity that could be described as bondage in the sense of what they are
accustomed to seeing in classifying or refusing classification to material
that would seek to be an X-rated movie.
Senator McGAURAN—So it
was role playing, not bondage?
Mr Clark—They are the
words used in the board report in relation to this film.
Senator McGAURAN—The
review board—the other mob—deemed it as bondage. They knew it to be.
Mr Clark—They did, but
they also deemed it to be very mild as well in that context.
Senator McGAURAN—Did you
read anything in the classification that it says mild bondage is all right
but hard bondage is not?
Mr Clark—I did not
describe it as mild bondage. That is the decision of the review board and
I am not in a position to comment on a decision by the review board. I can
only say that in coming to an X classification on the film 9 Songs and
looking at that scene, they were of the view that it was not a serious
bondage scene but more of a role-play scene.
Senator McGAURAN—So they
have used their discretion about what is a serious bondage scene and what
is a mild bondage scene. Though they accept that it is bondage and you do
not—
Mr Clark—In the
guidelines it just says:
Fetishes such as body
piercing, application of substances such as candle wax, ‘golden
showers’, bondage, spanking or fisting are not permitted.
The board was of the view
that this was not bondage.
Senator McGAURAN—Yes, I
know. But the review board was of the view that it was. Once you accept
that it is, there is no room for discretion, be it mild or hard bondage or
whatever you want to call it.
Mr Clark—The board was
of the view that it was not bondage. If it was bondage in the view of the
board, it would have been refused classification.
Senator McGAURAN—You are
all getting very muddled. You do not think it is bondage and therefore it
would not be refused classification on that basis. The review board thinks
it is bondage and yet gives it classification. What a right muddle. Where
are they? Are they here?
Mr Clark—The convener
can be called, but she is not here. I would be very happy to take that on
notice for a response from the convener of the Classification Review
Board.
Senator McGAURAN—Chair,
why isn’t there anyone here from the review board?
CHAIR—Would you like
that taken on notice, Senator McGauran?
Senator McGAURAN—To
whom?
CHAIR—To the convener of
the review board.
Senator McGAURAN—To
answer that question?
CHAIR—Yes.
Senator McGAURAN—It was
a statement.
Senator LUDWIG—You
cannot make a statement.
CHAIR—We actually deal
in questions and answers here.
Senator McGAURAN—You are
all muddled. All right, let her answer this: why are you all so muddled?
CHAIR—I do not think
that is the question. The question is a specific question you were asking
about 9Songs. That was my understanding.
Senator McGAURAN—All
right. If she can possibly answer that, I would appreciate it.
Senator Ellison—We will
take that on notice.
Senator McGAURAN—On 14
February Senator Harradine asked you:
Do you take the
pornographic intent into consideration?
You answered:
If the intent is purely
pornographic I am sure that the board will apply the guidelines very
rigidly.
So if the intent is
pornographic, you will certainly take that into account. Did you find the
movie pornographic?
Mr Clark—Do you mean 9
Songs?
Senator McGAURAN—Yes.
Mr Clark—If I can go to
the same estimates, I replied to Senator Harradine that the guidelines do
not actually use the word ‘pornographic’ and nor does the code.
Sexually explicit intent would place the film into an X classification,
which is what the board did.
Senator McGAURAN—I am
only quoting you back. You said:
If the intent is purely
pornographic I am sure that the board will apply the guidelines very
rigidly.
Mr Clark—And then I
clarified that. I said that it does not use the word ‘pornographic’ in
any of the instruments or tools that the board uses. That word does not
appear. So the board is classifying it X in the sense that it is a special
classification with sexually explicit material in it. That word is not
used anywhere in the classification system.
Senator McGAURAN—So you
do not take that into account.
Mr Clark—No, the X
classification says:
...
This classification category applies only to films. This classification is
a special and legally restricted category which contains only sexually
explicit material. That is material which contains real depictions of
actual sexual intercourse and other sexual activity between consenting
adults.
Senator McGAURAN—Aren’t
you just playing with words? You have told us how you keep in touch with
the community, and that is very good—and that, by the way, was a result
of the movie Salo. It made many changes to the review board—although I
despair that they are all unwinding now. The community, whom you are meant
to refer to from time to time, know what pornographic means. They know the
line, albeit that it is different for each person—there is a line and
you know it when you see it.
Senator McGAURAN—I have
not finished.
Mr Clark—I apologise.
Senator McGAURAN—It is
my turn! I know you are just playing with words. You are hiding behind the
fact that it is not classified, but in real life you have to take that
into account, because every criticism that I have picked up—and critics
are well known for their liberal views when reviewing films at the best of
times—
Senator Ellison—If we
could just get to the nub of the question.
CHAIR—We are very
pressed for time, Senator McGauran.
Senator McGAURAN—In
every critic’s review that I pick up, they use that term. You are trying
to hide behind ‘sexually explicit’, but go out to the community and
put those words to them and they would not know what you meant. Say
‘pornographic’ and they are with you. Every critic calls it
pornographic or question whether or not it is. I have all the critics’
reviews here, from the Age and the Financial Review, claiming it is just
pornographic and should not be exhibited. The Australian says it is
pornographic—
CHAIR—Your actual
question, Senator McGauran?
Senator McGAURAN—I have
to give this a bit of a backdrop. The Herald-Sun asks is it not
pornographic—
CHAIR—We are getting
your drift. What is your actual question?
Senator McGAURAN—and
there is a feature in the Age. So that is the term they use. If you want
to stay in touch with the community, know what that word means and where
that line is drawn. You use one term; the public identify with another,
including the critics—and, may I add, the review board. The review board
thought it was pornographic, ‘mildly pornographic’. But if it is
pornographic it should not be shown. You use the term ‘sexually
explicit’; we use ‘pornographic’.
Mr Clark—If I take the
common word—and I agree with you, ‘porn’ is the more frequently used
descriptor—you are perfectly right: yes, that is the case. I am not
playing with words. They are the actual words that we have to use in
coming to classification decisions. The board, if you like, formed a view
that 9 Songs should be classified X because it contains sexually explicit
material which, yes, the press are commonly referring to as porn. They are
not using that word but the words that are here. They are not words to
hide behind but words that they are required to have regard to. That is
the classification system. The Classification Review Board looked at that
and considered that the amount of sex in the film could be accommodated by
an R rating. The reasons for their decision on 9 Songs are in their
report. If they choose to use the word that is commonly used, there is
nothing wrong with that, but it is not a word that appears in the
classification system.
Senator McGAURAN—In
short, you did not believe the movie was pornographic—
Mr Clark—I do not
express personal views about this.
Senator McGAURAN—The
board did not believe it was pornographic, yet they would not classify the
movie. The review board thought it was pornographic, yet they classified
the movie. What a muddle!
Mr Clark—If I apply the
word ‘pornographic’ then obviously that is consistent with the board
coming to an X decision. The reasons for the Classification Review
Board’s decision are available. That is their justification for coming
to a decision which shows the review board and the classification system
working. A lot of people will disagree with that decision, but that is the
decision that the review board have made. I would also add that there is a
lot of material that is simulated sex which is classified R. It is not
real but it is simulated sex, which is classified R—and that could also
be described as pornographic.
Senator McGAURAN—You
have to take into account, according to the classification, the prolonged
nature of any offending scene or any scene at all. There are two questions
here. The movie is a cheap 70 minutes long and 35 minutes of it, according
to the critics, is sex. The real offending scene breaks a record, being
the most prolonged of its kind. In the past you have always relied on a
fleeting scene—you have used the word ‘fleeting’ quite often, or
‘not prolonged’, in any other reports you have on films. But here we
have got a record: it is quite a long scene, with more than half the movie
itself being one big sex scene.
What is the question?
There has been no other movie with such a prolonged, intimate sex scene.
Firstly, I am trying to establish that this movie is groundbreaking. And,
secondly, where do you draw the line between ‘fleeting’ and
‘prolonged’, when half the movie—35 minutes—is taken up with it?
Mr Clark—The actual sex
scenes in the film do not add up to 35 minutes. I believe that was a
misreport in the press. There are two longer scenes of actual sex. There
is a lot of what is, for all intents and purposes, simulated sex. There
are two longer scenes of actual sex—one of approximately one minute and
one of approximately two minutes—and several briefer depictions of
actual sex identified in the review board’s reasons for its decision. It
is not the 30 minutes described in the media, but there are those
particular scenes that have been described. There is quite a lot of other
simulated sexual activity but not detailed, explicit sexual activity.
Senator McGAURAN—But the
true offending scene is not fleeting, is it? For the first time it is not.
Mr Clark—That would be
the one of approximately one minute and one of approximately two minutes.
CHAIR—Senator McGauran,
in light of the circumstances in which the committee finds itself, is it
possible for you to put your further questions on notice, as the minister
suggested?
Senator McGAURAN—No, but
I only have two more—
CHAIR—I see.
Senator McGAURAN—providing
I do not get sidetracked. Thank you for your patience. Another criterion
you have to take into account is the type of audience you expect to see
this movie. That is what the review board took into account too, as they
said. In rejecting this movie, from your level, what type of audience did
you think would be seeing this movie?
Mr Clark—The film is
restricted to adults over the age of 18. The film would probably have a
limited appeal in terms of the broader community. I would not want to make
a judgment about those members of the community who may or may not choose
to see the film, but I think that the amount of time it has been on
exhibition would indicate that not a vast number in the community have
taken the opportunity to view the film.
Senator McGAURAN—You
cannot speak for the review board, can you.
Mr Clark—No.
Senator McGAURAN—Would
your board take into account where the movie is going to be shown—in
which theatres?
Mr Clark—The board takes
that into account in coming to a decision. In my board’s decision, it
was X18+, which means it would not be shown in cinemas; it would only be
available from the ACT and the Northern Territory.
Senator McGAURAN—The
review board took that criterion into account too. The movie is showing in
one place in Collins Street, which is pretty mainstream, and on Fitzroy
Street, St Kilda—mainstream again.
Mr Clark—That reflects
the fact that the film now has an R18+ rating and it is quite permissible
for it to be shown in public exhibition cinemas. But, as I say, from the
amount of time that the film has been on the screens, not a vast
proportion of the Australian adult community has actually gone to see the
film.
Senator McGAURAN—Other
than that it is an R rated movie for adults over 18, if you take into
account where it is showing—which theatres it is being shown in—it is
being shown in mainstream theatres.
Mr Clark—That is
correct. That is consistent with the rating.
Senator McGAURAN—Heaven
knows what the review board was ever taking into account. If it is being
shown in the mainstream theatres, they are taking nothing into account,
other than the rating.
Mr Clark—The rating is
consistent with the ratings in other jurisdictions around the world. The
film has been shown in similar circumstances in many places.
Senator McGAURAN—Of
course, for someone who does not represent the review board, you do a good
job defending them. This is my last question. No, I have two more.
CHAIR—One.
Senator McGAURAN—All
right—I will make it a big one.
CHAIR—How will I tell
the difference?
Senator McGAURAN—Mr
Clark, you released the movie Irreversible with the offending scene in it
and you issued it on artistic merit.
Mr Clark—No.
Senator McGAURAN—You did
not?
Mr Clark—That is one of
many criteria the board applies, so it was not a decision made solely on
artistic merit. That is one of the things the board must consider in
coming to a decision every time it makes a decision.
Senator McGAURAN—I put
it to you that it was the overriding one. It was mutually exclusive to all
the others. I was establishing in my earlier questioning about the meaning
and all those other factors. They were so black and white you had to
overcome them with some esoteric or subjective judgment. That was artistic
merit, which has now become the overriding factor in the classification
system. However, with Nine Songs they are a lot clearer. They admit it is
pornographic—they admit this and that and everything else I have been
speaking about—but it has artistic merit, which overrides all the
classifications. So aren’t you just cherry-picking now? There is no
holistic look at the classification system. In fact, you may as well get
rid of the detailed classification system because you are now just
cherry-picking to the mutual exclusion of everything else, and artistic
merit is coming to the forefront here. I also put it to you—and it is
quite obvious—that you and the higher board run to this artistic merit
excuse every time you are caught with your backs to the wall. It has
become the catch-cry to diminish the existing classification. I put it to
you that Reid v Director-General of Social Services, Administrative
Appeals Tribunal, 1981, states that in exercising the discretion under the
relevant section of the act:
... the decision-maker
must have regard to whether, by exercising the discretion in a particular
case, he will be achieving or frustrating ends or objects which are
conformable with the scope and purpose of the Social Services Act 1947 ...
The act specifies the code
and classification—words such as ‘demeaning’, ‘exploitation’ et
cetera.
CHAIR—Senator McGauran—
Senator McGAURAN—You do
not take them into account; you take artistic merit into account.
CHAIR—Senator McGauran,
I am going to ask Mr Clark for a response and that will conclude his part
of the examination.
Senator McGAURAN—Quite
frankly, you would not hold up an Administrative Appeals Tribunal—
Senator Ellison—Madam
Chair, we need the question, not the statement. If we can have the
question, and if there are a series of them perhaps we can take them on
notice—
CHAIR—And examine the
Hansard and assess what the questions were.
Senator Ellison—and Mr
Clark can have an opportunity to get back in detail to Senator McGauran.
CHAIR—Would the
minister’s suggestion be satisfactory, Senator McGauran?
Mr Clark—I think the
simple answer is no.
CHAIR—Mr Clark, would
you assist the committee by examining the Hansard and extracting the
questions from Senator McGauran’s statement and then responding to them?
Mr Clark—I will assist
the committee—
CHAIR—Thank you very
much. Senator McGauran, will the minister’s suggestion assist you? Thank
you. Mr Clark and Mr Hunt, we appreciate your assistance to the committee
this evening.
[9.19
pm]
******
Following
on from the last update, John Murphy (ALP for Lowe), has again been
asking questions on behalf of the Religious Right.
Date: 23 May, 2005
Database: House Notice Paper
Number: 29
Session: Budget (2005)
Source: House
QUESTIONS IN WRITING
On the first sitting
day of each fortnight, a complete Notice Paper is published containing all
unanswered questions. On subsequent days, only new questions for the
sitting are included in the Notice Paper. The full text of all unanswered
questions is available at:
www.aph.gov.au/house/info/notpaper/qons.pdf.
*1403 MR
MURPHY: To ask the Attorney-General—
(1) Can he confirm that the Classification Review Board has reviewed
the decision of the Classification Board in respect of the film 9
Songs from X18+ to R18+, permitting explicit sex scenes to be
viewed in mainstream theatres throughout Australia, as reported in the
article titled ‘Uncomfortable position’ in The
Australian on 4 May 2005; if so, can he explain the basis of
this classification decision.
(2) Does the classification of 9
Songs as R18+ conform to the standards for the R18+ classification
in the (a) Classification Code and (b) Classification Guidelines.
(3) Do all films depicting explicit sex scenes subject to assessment
by the Office of Film and Literature Classification now
fall within the R18+ category.
(4) What action will he take to prevent explicit sex scenes being
screened in mainstream theatres.
(5) What is the current composition of the Classification Review
Board.
(6) What is the statutory number of positions permitted on the (a)
Classification Board and (b) Classification Review Board.
(7) Are churches, young Australians, elderly Australians and other
persons represented on the (a) Classification Board and (b)
Classification Review Board.
(8) What is the background of each of the eight members of the
Classification Board and in which industries have they worked.
(9) Will he take action to broaden the representation on the (a)
Classification Board and (b) Classification Review Board so that
churches, consumer groups, the young, older Australians and other persons
other than those currently on the board, are represented; if so, what; if
not; why not.
******
The full Review Board reports have just been released for THE
GORE GORE GIRLS and IN
A GLASS CAGE.
******
Calvista
have not had a good month with the OFLC. On May 16th three more of their titles
were Refused Classification.